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Why cloakers need to be able to be spotted.

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Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 02:38:00 - [1] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Chucky It's a lame form of play that 90% people playing do not enjoy. After investing billions in outposts and towers to get operations interrupted by a few low skilled peons with cloaks and a huge supply of child **** needs to be changed I think its great that the isk rich, bully boy aliiances can still suffer some minor irritation from a lone player. The problem in these cases is that a single player can enforce cost on a spaceholding entity while being at work, watching a movie or having slippery sex with the latex loving granny from next door. I simply cannot comprehend anyone rationalising that he should be able to impose this kind of obstruction, while being afk for hours. I haven't seen anyone here advocate that a cloaker shouldn't be able to do what this type of player is doing - when he is at the keyboard. All the pointers to how you might get rid of him are very fine and prob correct. But remember it is measures you are asking a large group of people to take on a constant basis against someone that might put as little as 0 minutes into forcing this, over the time he is logged in. The relation between effort and gain is completely out of sync on this issue.
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 07:05:00 - [2] Originally by: SiJira full sovereignty does not mean 0.0 carebear loveland it means you need to keep it up to maintain it And I haven't seen anyone here advocating that the terrorizing he is doing shouldn't be doable. Quite the contrary. There is just a reasonable request for him to be at the keyboard while he is doing it. SiJira, do you honestly think it is reasonable that a player can log in, affect the productivity of an entire system, and then leave the keyboard for the next 23 hours at no risk whatsoever? Its hardly the trademark for the Eve we all know and love.
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 07:23:00 - [3] Originally by: Devinator I do not see anything this guy is doing wrong, it is all within game mechanics. If you do not like it, then EVE may not be the right game for you. I don't think anyone suggested that it was not within the game mechanics. But game mechanics can, and will be, changed from time to time. And this is one I think could do with a lookover in terms of fairness and risk/reward. That it is part of the game now, is in no way an argument for that it should stay that way. I have been the cloaker quite a bit more than the "cloakee" - and that experience has left me convinced of the imbalance to the situation. The sense of terrorizing a system is quite satisfying - but it should come at a risk. Not only when you uncloak.
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 07:24:00 - [4] Originally by: Kil'Roy One thing though, a Stealth Bomber staying cloaked and attacking at moments of opportunity is the purpose of the ship. Again, noone is saying it shouldn't be.
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 07:27:00 - [5] Originally by: Tortun Nahme [ there are ways to deal with it, and eve has always relied on player initiative And just how do you deal with a cloaker thats afk? That you can catch him, if or when he uncloaks, is relatively irrelevant to the issue.
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 08:06:00 - [6] Originally by: Tortun Nahme youve been tracking his time online, you know when he comes on after dt, probe out his safe spot before he cloaks, at the very least you will narrow it to the right grid, only takes a few frigs with sb's to cover it all quickly enough, at the very least you force to move to a new one, keep doing it and he will have to leave for fear of being nabbed Correct me if I am wrong here - I admit to being a probing noob - but when he logs in and warps back to his safespot, and immideately activates the cloak, wont there be too little time to scan him out? Wouldn't it be a better option to strike as he logs out? (an action he can postpone to dt, if he deems it too risky before, though)
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 08:12:00 - [7] Originally by: T'Laar Bok I don't believe CCP should have introduced the ability to cloak and it should be removed. Its effect is waay too powerful and imbalanced. I am kinda in that boat. I have been convinced for some time that it has had a rather substantial detrimental effect on many aspects of pvp. They are fun to fly - but larger scale intrasystem combat has for a large part become precision movements based on absolute intel - or no combat, due to cloaks (not that mistakes are not made still). But thats another debate really.
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 10:20:00 - [8] Edited by: Trak Cranker on 15/07/2007 10:23:57 Originally by: Lt Angus When he uncloaks you can spot him, when hes cloaked hes harmless. Like the mechanic or not, that there is not true. Even when cloaked he limits options and causes a shift in alertness level. Both cost isk. It can very well be the equivalent of having a button you can push every 2h that just blows up an enemy battleship. All while not even being at the computer.
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 10:34:00 - [9] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Proof and/or screenshots or never happens. Please prove that he is afk... I don't think the object is to prove whether this exact person is AFK or not. But that the game mechanics allows him to be. The idea is that it would be nice to have the tools to have a shot at punishing those that _are_ AFK for long periods.
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 11:17:00 - [10] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes What did the allies do in WWII when the germans deployed submarines? They travled in convoys. What did the germans do when they found 1 lone ship? Sink it with their torpedoes. See, history can actually teach you a thing or 2 It does fit to an extent. I don't think the right response is so much the issue. But that they are (potentially) forced to make it by little to no effort. It is still a game, where there should be some corrolation between effort and effect. Even if you were not able to stay cloaked while afk for a long time, you could still have a serious impact in this way. But then the opponent at least would know that you were putting _some_ effort into it. It was not like the u-boat captains could just sink a merchant ship once a month and then leave the subs prowling the waters undetectable while they went home to the family for a large percentage of the time. A cloaked killer in a system is a serious isk drain on the target. That should come with some risk for the unattentive pilot. There are all kinds of suggestions and demands on the guys posting the issue to make an effort - yet the near effortless work of the afk cloaker seems quite acceptable?
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 11:19:00 - [11] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Oh-just noticed this was another anti-covert/recon thread Its not really. Its an anti _afk_ covert/recon thread. :)
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 13:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Victor Vision - While he is cloaked in a safe, he can not attack you To sum up on this and a few of the other comments: Noone is whining about the ships or the cloak as such. It is the situation where the ships and cloaks are used _afk_, to pose a threat on a system with no effort, forcing a change of MO, thats the problem. In mine, and others apparently, humble opinion. A change of MO to run gangs with pilots that could be ratting to hunt him and/or cover miners, that would otherwise not need protection costs isk, Victor. Lots of isk. Possibly way more than he could destroy by making an actual attack regularly. And he does it from an unassailable position. I am all for cloakers being able to work in the ways described - but in the least there should be a chance of hunting them down if they are not paying just a minimum of attention. Not saying they should be easy to hunt down - but someone going afk cloaked should not be able to go to work and come back 10-11 hours later and be certain that he is not back at the medical station.
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 13:48:00 - [13] Originally by: SiJira while he is afk he does nothing Ok, for the third time I think; That is not true. He hurts the isk making capability of the system. Badly. And who is the bigger carebear, really? The one that want the opportunity to hunt afk cloakers down, or the one that want to be able to sit afk and risk free under cloak x hours a day and hurt the opponents finances?
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 14:01:00 - [14] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Trak Cranker A cloaked killer in a system is a serious isk drain on the target. i swear all you anti cloakers have a secret forum you share carebear ideas on - either that or some brainbug is controlling all of you in an effort to destroy eve as we know it Ok, I left the part you bolded in, as I must assume that the comment was targeted at that. And I want to ask if you disagree with that? Because its not an idea - its pure logic. And when will you understand that we are not cloak haters - I am not at least. It just shouldnt be a weapon you can set on autofire while go out and get drunk or whatever else.
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 14:09:00 - [15] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Trak Cranker Originally by: SiJira while he is afk he does nothing Ok, for the third time I think; That is not true. He hurts the isk making capability of the system. Badly. And who is the bigger carebear, really? The one that want the opportunity to hunt afk cloakers down, or the one that want to be able to sit afk and risk free under cloak x hours a day and hurt the opponents finances? do you even want a discussion or do you just want to whine as loud as you can? ill keep posting in your threads i dont care if you dont have the ability to respond to my posts I see me responding to your claims. I see you doing nothing of the sort. Answer me this(two quite simple questions): 1) Do you acknowledge that a cloaked ship in system hampers the isk generation in the system, compared to it not being there? 2) If yes to 1), do you think it is reasonable that such can be done from an unattackable position while you leave your computer for several hours?
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 14:13:00 - [16] Originally by: SiJira guess what when they are afk they are not there to shoot you revelation - as in you might as well not have him in the system until he returns whats the drain exactly? Newsflash: You dont know if he is afk. So you have to act as if he is not. And that prevents a lot of people from working as efficient as they could if they had a clean system.
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 14:56:00 - [17] Originally by: SiJira Quote: And that is all well and good in my book. If the cloaker is actually behind the wheel at the time. let me quote you Quote: Newsflash: You dont know if he is afk. maybe he likes to sit all day sitting there and fantasizing about all the social life he would have if he didnt play eve and then gets you when you are foolish enough to do something that causes you to be vulnerable in a 0.0 dangerous system You havent quite gotten the point have you? I want the afk cloaker to be frightened of going AFK for long stretches. Whether I know he is or not is irrelevant. I don't want the ordinary active cloaker to have to do more than an itsy bitsy tiny bit more than usual to avoid being found. As in, if I _think_ he is AFK, I can give some difficult/longtimered probing a chance. Don't find him? Then he is most likely not afk. And all is good and fair. In my book it would be a a VERY reasonable solution to introduce an incredibly small risk for the active cloaked pilot - but a risk that would be too big to go afk with for long. And we are not talking a potty break.
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.15 14:58:00 - [18] Originally by: Steel Tigeress I dont really think cloaks need changed... its being AFK that needs changed. Precisely.

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